“There is also the early Friends’ understanding of “measure”: each individual is held accountable for living up to his or her own “measure” of grace, or spiritual understanding, or Divine gifts. There is not an objective, one-size-fits-all yardstick by which we are measured.” http://www.fgcquaker.org/library/ministry/seasoned-friend.html

I believe John offers himself as a “public Quaker”, one whose leading is risky, but does serve the purpose of facilitating dialogue. For my part, I’m grateful, and, yes, scared, when these painful topics emerge. I do see compassionate action at work when we learn to work with ourselves as much as with the “other”, the person who is different than we are. If we can learn to create a space for listening deeply to the “other”, I hope we can serve, step by step, a polarized world more peaceably.

The one unifying thread of Quakerism is the silence of meeting, where each person submerges into the unconscious pool created by all present in the room, breathing. That’s the beauty of Quakerism. And the radical ideals of equality for all, even when morality lowers your own standard of living, and working for peace. This flows straight out of George Fox, the radical. It’s as serious as a heart attack, and a real challenge to live up to.

Jesus is a mixed bag of wonderful inspiration and WTF??. Read Bertrand Russel’s “Why I’m not a Christian.” At this point, nobody seems to know Jack about Jesus. What did Jesus actually say? Are we living anything like that? I am talking about Quakers who are Jesus-Oriented, too. What the heck would you do if Jesus’ teachings threatened your standard of living? Dude, we are Americans in a serious recession that is on the verge of depression. I see a lotta lip-service Jesus going around.

Problems happen when the meeting has adopted a dogma, which can be as subtle as a crew of elders who keep getting up and saying the same things repeatedly, and dominating the spoken meditation. I recall some very stern elders at Stillwater, Ohio Meeting in the late 60s (OYM, Conservative) who would stand up en masse and glare down a speaking congregant because it was incongruous to their narrow minds. Do women and men still sit in segregated sides of the Meeting House? Help me, folks in Ohio.
I know there are Quaker Meetings with ministers who give a preached sermon, and Bible/Christ centered believers in the greater fold. I have spent time on both sides of the Wilbur/Hicks divide. Wilbur kicked my ass, actually, and Hicks helped me think it thru. This was before the Conservative Ohio Yearly Meeting ran out of young people who would tow their line, and they shriveled up in the face of modernity and open mindedness. Richard Nixon was Quaker, remember? Who has rights to the name “Quaker?” Anyone with ancestors and existing meetings.

Why don’t you just make a list of important beliefs and see where people fall in place within these categories: 1. I do or don’t believe it and 2. I can live and worship with others who do or don’t. These 2 categories would include acceptance and/or rejection of things like Atheism, Homosexuality, Belief in the JudeoChristian Sky God, Wicca, feminism, degrees of committment to pacifism, support or intolerance for expressions of adolescent sexuality, the very idea that adolescents might express their sexuality responsibly with orgasm included, the idea of Jesus as Personal Savior, violating the law as peace testimony, etc, etc, etc. These are the litmus tests that reveal the chemical element.

Perhaps there are serious differences between Quakers that are so vast that they really should just disband the religion, and the Liberal ones join the Unitarians or whatever, and the Conservatives join the Southern Baptists, or whatever. We’ve already got a great schism between the FGC and the FUM. On this level, Quakerism is as tawdry and political as any other religion on earth. Witness the Pope’s lame overtures to the Eastern Orthodox, as if….

Like I said in the beginning of this post, the beauty is in a group of people all sitting down together in silence, waiting… That is the only reason why I go to Meeting.

Is Quaker-ism a lost cause, because there are just as many of them who believe in warmongering pacifism, and gay-hating tolerance as you who work tirelessly against all wars and seek to open the laws of marriage for the 10% of same-sex loving freaks among us?

I wish you well, and I love you, based on your very wonderful video. I assure you, I would be dancing and playing a saxophone in time with you’all, right there in Meeting. It reminds me of my favorite joke:
“Did you hear, the Southern Baptists have outlawed folks having sex while standing up? Yes, it could lead to DANCING!!!”
Walter

Thanks for joining the conversation!

All of my music (including “Instructions for Us(e)”) can be found on iTunes and CD Baby.

peace
Jon

I know there are many Friends who hold some version of this belief very dear to their heart. I also have a lot of respect for the (non-Quaker) evangelical tradition I grew up in. I don’t mean to disrespect atonement theology (though I’m quite willing to disagree with it on a spiritual basis). I *do* feel like Christ Within has brought me into a state of inner salvation — i.e. wholeness, freedom from spiritual bondage, acceptance of God’s grace — without me needing to accept that particular theological concept.

You probably noticed I used the “S” word up there. I think we do need salvation. Is my linking the word “Savior” to a particular tenet of evangelical faith cultural or spiritual? Maybe it’s both.

Of course, the question we’re standing at the edge of and haven’t really dipped our toes into is, “What’s the relationship between Jesus Christ and Christ Within?”

thanks for your care filled response. The question that I’ve gotten a lot… and i’d like to pose this to you also, since you claimed it for yourself too:

-If you’ve dedicated yourself to an inward Christ, then how is he/it not your savior?

This question makes a lot of sense to me… if you’ve been baptized in light and you’ve committed yourself to The Truth and The Way, hasn’t it saved you? Or are you too arrogant to recognize it? Or are you not truly committed?

My answer is that the “he’s not my savior” part of the chorus is a cultural statement, not a theological one. Growing up in an FGC-liberal, nontheistic tradition, we were mostly just culturally religious. That is… we went to Meeting because we knew people there, it was our community and we wanted to keep up with it. “Is Jesus Christ YOUR Lord and personal savior?” is simply the kind of statement that someone on the religious right would make – a cultural statement that we distanced ourselves from without even thinking about the theological implications.

When we said “no,” it wasn’t because we carefully considered our inner light and it’s relationship to Christ Jesus, and decided “yeah… I could really take it or leave it”. We were saying “No, I am not a religious conservative.”

So what’s my real, personal, theological answer, out of character? Um… maybe Christ IS my savior, come to think of it. What would you say?

thank you for your honest response! You certainly share a perspective with the majority of Quakers and I am very glad to be broadening my understanding. I have thought much more about salvation and it’s relationship with the concept of an inward Christ because of this dialogue.

The reasoning behind that particular lyrics is that it is cultural rather than theological… please see my response to Jeff,

im not a christian but basically qquakers obviously has its roots and lots of its influences in chiritianity to me jesus isnt my savior and he didnt die in the cross for my sins or anything becuase i dont want him to if i do something wrong i think i should take responsibilty for i (dont always manage it tho)
im not a christian because ive always felt that jesus was the main part of it and because its always seemed a bit exclusive in that if i was a christian then i could only be a christian and get influences and thoughts from other belifs and i dont wasnt anyone in charge of what i beleive

theres probably a better way of putting that but…

also been listening to youre songs on youre myspace page for about a year a friand intoduced me to you’re music at yorkshire friends holiday school but ive noticed youve removed some of youre older songs specifically instructions for use which is one of the best songs ive ever heard. i was wondering why and if its anywhere else on the internet